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Another saint said to have levitated is St. John Maximovitch of Shanghai and San Francisco, an Orthodox saint. He is roughly contemporaneous with Padre Pio, and also said to have bilocated and been clairvoyant. So they aren't stories restricted to Roman Catholicism.
Even going back to stories of St. Mary of Egypt, there have always been stories of Christian ascetics that levitated.
1:25:42 Paul being about his most Calvinist he's ever been. I am open to other exhibits, but this is a striking witness. 😊
(1:17:50) And Chad scores! 🤣
(1:16:54) Bethel is extremely confused on this point. Consider Acts 10:15, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”
Also, whenever clever people speak with such authority, it's a good time to meditate on Matthew 23.
I would tune in just to watch the Dog Bark branding. Man, what voices.
Paul, God has harden your heart. It does fit in w/ your Calvinism. 😅
(1:10:23) Can we agree that a discussion has gone just a tad off the rails when participants start advocating for the Inquisition?
(1:05:18) Paul, what is TLC then? I'm very confused about where you stand. If we use Bethel's heavy filter, we will be open to nothing outside of what is familiar to us. But if our filters are too light, you say we will find ourselves in a "minority position." Is that where you want to be? It's most definitely not Bethel and Kale's expressed position (if words in a livestream mean anything).
Maybe we can get Bethel on TLC Debates once it's up and running?! 😉
Kale, Protestants ragging on Catholics is a feature not a bug of their theology.
(1:02:30) The Apostle Paul got similarly "twitchy" about the Resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. Look it up…
(1:01:20) this is a pretty ungenerous characterization of Dale Allison. Among being a leading scholar, he is also a faithful elder in his Presbyterian church. In addition to being a world-class scholar and historian, he, like Carlos Eire, is breaking new ground in writing about the extraordinary using modern historical methods.
I stand with Bethel. You might identify as a good person or a nice person; doesn't make it so. If you'd like to change my mind, please go to the last 5 people you offended and explain to them how you're actually a good person and a nice person. If you can convince them, I’ll listen to your case and maybe I’ll finally meet a good person in my life. I’ve been looking for a long time.
(50:00) are we mocking Pentecostalism here while seriously discussing the historicity of flying nuns and angels? Kale: "Got a word. Got a word. Got a word."
Listening to this again to see if I misunderstood Bethel and Kale. At minute 32:00
Anyone interested in this topic should consider listening to the two most recent episodes of Jimmy Akin’s Mysterious World: “Joe Fisher’s Spirit Guides (Guides, Mediumship, Channeling)” and “Joe Fisher’s Hungry Ghosts! (Guides, Mediumship, Channeling)”.
2022 period piece movie "The Wonder" starring Florence Pugh about an Irish girl miraculously surviving on no food.
52:13 You said "What is it with the Irish?" Where I grew up fairies and curses were taken as almost tangible realities. Disenchantment was late to hit the island, especially in west.
Did Jesus ability? to perform miracles at home wane because no one has faith in him and as people’s faith in Joseph of San Bernardino grew his miracles became stronger? Do I have that right? Reading the Bible for the first time and Read Mark 6 last night.
Bethel dismissing flying as trivial is exactly the problem Kale was describing about how we are all modernists. Only a person living into the second century of the age of flight could think this. Flight is a big deal. The practical and survival implications are limitless. The Wrightbros though their invention would literally end war in the early 1900's. Imagine what people thought in the 1600's. Flight also has mythic resonance. It is one of the most common dreams. Would Superman be popular if he had all other powers except for flight? He actually also levitates BTW. I don't make this argument from a selfish POV- I am one of the minority of highly suspect, introverted wierdos that would choose invisibility as my superpower over the more extroverted, look-at me-everyone, allegedly heroic power of flight.
32:29 :…no one expects the Spanish Inquisition !"
Spouse suggests JV inviting Hermes to say the Our Father with him, just to see what happens. Interesting idea and one that JV might entertain purely as an experiment.
What was the channeling thing Griz was talking about? Just curious
Lurking Orthodox priest knows: Bethel's extended dalliance with Anglicanism has (inevitably) made her episcopalian, and dudes flying around simply won't do at sherry hour.
Bethel McGrew (& other evangelicals) idea that Christianity is special because it has ‘the best miracle/s’ with ‘the best evidence’ is so ridiculous to me
Like how dare Dale Allison allow for the mysterious or supernatural in anything other than our single special thing that we can show with rationalism is logically probable.
What is it with the Irish, asks Paul. Has he never heard of the Blarney Stone? 🤣
Levitation aside, it's important to stay grounded.
Minute 14. Yep. We want fairness and justice but . . . . please give me some mercy!
Gee. Wish I had seen this live. Anyhow enjoying now!
2:02:46 Wild GOSPEL appeared!
1:24:30 i would ask if this is actually true tho: was that the actual result in most of those that witnessed it, or was it largely spectacle and distraction from exactly the Mass? perhaps both can be true, so the question could instead be to what extent was it helpful vs harmful. the relatively nearby Bethel Church's gold dust, for example, is one reason i ask this question and what gives me pause on the subject, as well as personal experiences in YWAM and beyond.
and if not, did the elders over him sin/were they in error in commanding him to stop? and why not just fully lean into it instead of stifling it if it was truly the move of God? did they see it as this exemplification of the Mass that Kale is claiming?
though pointed, these are just honest questions i'm chewing on in grappling with this subject—and to be clear, as a somewhat "Charismatic" Christian.
1:13:58 Paul, surely as a pastor you wouldn't leave such a door cracked open at all for someone in your congregation asking that question about them and their own son, right? "well… idk, maybe, pray more about it." no. ASSUREDLY God would not ask that of you, especially in light of the Scriptures coming after Abraham declaring God doesn't desire such a thing and never has, to Bethel's point.
and additionally, the potential demonic sourcing is exactly why Abraham is said to have had faith, again to Bethel's point he wasn't just fully open and heeded any whim he heard in his mind without deliberation and discernment. and unique to his context, he did not have the declarative Revelation we have in the Scriptures which makes such things clear.
there's so very much we can know God will for sure not command us to do, as He has already commanded us to do the opposite, or explicitly told us never to do such things, or revealed that it's wrong and why.
WE THANK THE AND PRAISE THEE ALMIGHTY ALGO……
Bethel would be best served by viewing this video on the Academy of Ideas YT channel as soon as possible:
"Pursue Pain, Not Pleasure – Why Comfort is Crippling You"
Just came out a day ago….
The universe works in strange ways….
BTW….Ireland itself is a GIANT hotspot for the miraculous, and has been for a long time. But sadly modernity has been making huge inroads into the land theses past few decades, but God still can be found out in the countryside. Church attendance is dropping like a rock though.
As for self-flagellation: that's never gone away. But instead of using it for spiritual growth, it's been turned into a "health" fetish. Thank you materialistic modernism! Any one of us here in the materialist USA can see all the self-flagellation you want by just visiting your local Planet Fitness. And these people PAY to be in pain! Or, you could just go to Luke Thompson's basement.
NO PAIN, NO GAIN. That is a core axiom of life everywhere on earth, without exception. Even in the animal world.
As for flying religious, Set gave us "The Flying Nun" when I was young. We never questioned it. Nor did we ever question talking horses, thank to Mr. Ed. It's all true.
And yes, Pecos Bill and Paul Bunyan, the great American "myths"….
Kale Zelden AND Bethel on at the same time! And talking about "They Flew", "St. Joseph of Cupertino", "St. Teresa of Avila", "Lorna Byrne (the Irish mystic who sees angels)", and C.S. Lewis!
This video is proof that God is a God of miracles. Two of my favorite TLC people on at the same time! YES!!!!!
Also, these are the two most based people on the TLC.
But I must admit, Chad was quite right to come on the stream and rebuke Bethel about her angel theology. Bethel may want to go back and read the Bible a little more closely, as angels are constantly coming and going and saying crazy stuff all the time.
Angel Gabriel: "Hey Mary, God says he's going to send his Holy Spirit, and impregnate you with the Messiah!"
Just think of all those poor Jewish girls who had wanted to be impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and got passed over….
(Maybe that's why they call it "Passover"…)
I agree 100% with Chad: God is a FRAME BREAKER. The entire Bible is story after story of how God likes going around and knocking tables over. Systematize that!!!
As for Lorna Byrne, the famous Irish mystic who see angels all the time: I totally believe her, and all her stories. She even has her own channel her on YT. If you go and synthesize all of her stories and visions, there's no new revelation in what she's seen, the angels give her very particular things to see and do, and she follows their orders most of the time. But even she will admit that she doesn't always listen! LoL!
Also, she is far from the only one who sees angels. I learned about her from a guy I know who has seen angels and demons (and even the spirits of the dead!), and he's the one who recommended the book, as he had the same sort of visitations and visions. I takes one to know one.
Great job PVK! Keep up the good work!
Thanks!
10:40 That is a complete straw man argument. I don't discount miracles or angels because they are "unfair" but because they are wildly insufficiently unevidenced. We know people are prone to superstition. We know people make cognitive errors. We know people lie for a multitude of reasons. We know these things happen many millions of times every day. "Modernity" as discovered these things.
Angels are indistinguishable from hobgoblins, leprechauns, fairies, imps, sprites, Jinn and all the other wonderous creatures that human imagination can create. There is zero evidence for these entities outside the pages of mythology or some "sacred text".
I'm confused. Is there a difference between levitating and walking on water? Witches were burnt if they floated in a lake, no? By Christians? Um, how should I think about this?
Was this a translation error? Did Christ say "I am the way" or maybe "I is the way"? I'm curious.
"if God breaks the rules"? Um, a joke Ouspensky told in his book is the seminary students asking what God cannot do, to which one student answered "even God can't beat a flush with a pair of twos". Ouspensky found a deeper meaning in this joke. Gurdjieff described a miracle as something like 'laws of one plane operating on another plane'. The laws cannot be broken but they can appear to be broken. Gurdjieff was doing his thing pre-Lewis, he died in 1949.
Why is it called enlightenment? Seems to be more Terminator Rise of the Machines.
Hmm. How do I know my world view is the correct one? Thanks Kale, for asking this question.
Why is it, in this little corner, LARPing is a good idea?
What's this 'sleep token' thing?
Of all the things I could pursue, levitation is not even bottom of the list. I like my feet firmly on the ground!
Sorry, missed the live stream, was having way too much fun in Grail County.
I don't want to be God myself, I imagine that I am a God. It's different. Did I mention I have a big ego?
Y'all fed up with listening my thoughts yet? Bethel is accusing people of the same thing she is doing herself.
I'm tired.
Kale Zelden
@kalezelden
Literature teacher. This newsletter draws upon my background teaching old books. I look for new emanations and emergences of old patterns.
Agree with Dr Jim again that Christian historian is a particular challenge for Christians
Generally agree with Dr. Jim that people shouldn't be burnt alive
Are Bethel and Esther Oriely the same person? Sorry for my ignorance.
You should know I'm waiting here, and I've always been, and I've loved you when you least expect it
You should know I'm waiting here, and I've always been even when my love has been rejected
and the rain falls on the righteous and the wicked
2:13:13 they thought they were witches. Why don’t we think they are?
Reminds me of how I first started to let go of atheism: I realized I was not rejecting God, Jesus or the church, but my limited straw man of it. So I started to listen to Christians and learn what I was actually rejecting.